RamblinRover, white courtesy phone. RamblinRover, white courtesy phone.

"TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts." (thebloody) 04/17/2016 at 10:17 • Filed to: Land Rover Shower thoughts, Land Rover

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No, the white phone.

Question regarding the RRC diffs in your brothers Series. Are you using series stub axles or RRC’s? I’m thinking I want to keep my 109 as stock looking as possible and maybe go with disco diffs and stub axles on the series casing.

TheHondaBro > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 04/17/2016 at 10:33

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“Ramblin Rover, Ramblin Clarence Rover"

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 04/17/2016 at 10:55

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RR IRL

Your boy, BJR > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 04/17/2016 at 11:04

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TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 04/17/2016 at 11:06

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I knew it.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 04/18/2016 at 10:54

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Series stub axles, but there are some caveats. The Series stub axles are 12spline/12spline on the inside/outside, and as you know, they likey breakey. The spline depth on the drive member is more shallow, and typically develops slop, and the poor metallurgy on a stock axle causes fatigue on the inner end and makes them typically snap on the inside, so you have two points of failure. You can get beefed up 12/12 axles, but the better idea in the long run is to swap to the late SIII hub drive members, which are 28spline, and use 12/28 improved axles, which you can order from Paddock Spares and other places. As the early Rangey centers have 12 spline spiders, this takes care of things for most purposes. For starters, we’re putting my brother’s back together with stock/OE 12/12 axles, but we may later go to rear 12/28s. The fronts will be staying 12/12 regardless because that’s what fits the Warn hubs. It is also possible to convert to 28 spline all the way through, including on the inside, because the same diff as in the Rangey went to 28 spline on the inside in the early 90s. Which brings me to answering your question on Rangey stub axles:

Rangey stub axles are different length. They do not fit Series axle cases. In fact, this makes a swap to the later 28/28 axles (which would otherwise be ideal) not really possible unless you’re using custom axle lengths, which are available but spendy. Funny enough, one side of the 28/28 axles is a match to the Salisbury D90 axle (within .1"), so you’d be able to carry a D90 part as a spare, but the custom 28/28 axles are pricey to get started with.

Lastly, if you’re insane and/or retarded, you can use 12/28 axles mounted backwards if you like the 28 spline inner, want to use a heavier axle, and want to use your existing outer drive members. That would require you putting a stud into the 12 spline outer, welding it, or other shenanigans, but if you get a positive enough fix of the old drive member to the axle, you’d be set to go that way too, and you could use a post’94 center.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 04/18/2016 at 11:12

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Hmm food for thought, main reason I want to go to Disco stub axles is so I can use D1 hubs (and disk brakes) on shortened 24 spline side shafts and with the 4 bolt flange. Much easier to replace and maintain than drum brakes and way less breakey breakey (also much easier to find lockers for). I mean I could go full axle swap but I really want to keep the stock track of the wheels, the 88 is cool and all but having wheels stick out the sides just adds more things to take care of.

Going 12/28 is just mad scientist and probably won’t go that route. I’m going to need to just pull the rear axle apart this weekend and see what I can do. Then again it looks like my Dad is going to pull the Salisbury axles from his 109 in favour of D1 axles with Ashcroft innards, which I’m totally okay with now because I called dibs on them.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 04/18/2016 at 11:29

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Okay, when you’re saying stub axles, are you referring to the spindles? I hadn’t had my coffee yet, so I could only infodump and not actually, you know, think. We’re using the stock spindles and drum setup. If the RRC/D1 spindle is a different diameter (as it probably is), that messes with things a bit, but the spline of the axle shaft for an RRC being the same, there’s probably a way to use standard half-shafts on a Series case(and swivels) and with Rangey hubs, so converting to disc that way. I haven’t tried that as yet - I just know that the Rangey swivels are smaller. I think the hub offset is almost identical, so I can’t think why it wouldn’t work, though there would be a downside in not being able to have locking hubs up front with a Rangey five-lug drive member setup.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 04/18/2016 at 11:34

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At this point I’m all over the map lol. I swear in the last hour I’ve gone from stock classic truck to rock climbing beast and ending up somewhere in between. I’ve got build project ADHD.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 04/18/2016 at 11:36

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Alex has actually met me in real life. I shouldn’t have expected him to keep the secret about me being a GeorgeForemanBot.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 04/18/2016 at 11:37

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I’m pretty sure there’s a way to King Solomon this particular baby in a way that has good results.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 04/18/2016 at 11:41

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If there is a way, I’m going to find it.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 04/18/2016 at 11:54

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I’ve got a Rangey front and rear axle, and a set of Series swivels apart on a table, so I may be able to do some measuring/examination on your behalf. If as I think is the case the support bearing for the outer piece of the half-shaft up front is supported in a bearing in the outer swivel casting, and the hub offset is right, it should be cake - once you’ve redrilled either the spindles or the outer flanges of front and rear axle casing/swivel housings. That part, of course, is important to get perfect up front, so you may need to farm out to a machine shop. The rear casing could get away with being imperfectly centered.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 04/18/2016 at 11:59

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Thanks man, I’d appreciate that.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 04/18/2016 at 12:13

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I will probably make use of the Fucking Huge Northern Tool Caliper (FHNTC) to check the respective bolt circles and depth. More precise than a tape, and it’s a vernier caliper over two feet long. Kind of great.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 04/18/2016 at 12:24

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Good fucking god, I need one of those in my life.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 04/18/2016 at 12:33

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http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/pro…

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 04/18/2016 at 12:39

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Second impulse purchase today.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 04/18/2016 at 12:47

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Dare I ask what the first was? And yeah, it was totally an impulse purchase for me as well. I was in Northern Tool for something else and I saw it. I was all like I NEED DIS

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 04/18/2016 at 12:53

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Ouma Buttermilk Rusks to dunk in my tea.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 04/18/2016 at 13:00

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I have discovered that peppermints are amazing for coffee as a flavorant- just drop one in and let it dissolve. This of course means I need to raid Wendy’s for a bunch when I go there next.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 04/20/2016 at 09:47

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Agent RamblinRover reporting in on the first phase of research into RRC brakes on Series:

I have yet to successfully remove the spindles/”stub axles” from the rear Rangey case, but I have no reason to believe they would present a problem to mount to a Series case other than *possible* bolt pattern mismatch. The flange *looks* the correct size, and the depth is correct to not bodge your track width. However, something else presented itself: you’ll have to make a bracket out of plate for the caliper to bolt on on the opposite side of the case flange from the stub, because the Rangey diff housing has an integral, welded-on caliper bracket. Okay, so kind of stupid, but not impossible, right?

Then we come to the front. I have not yet determined whether the front stubs can be carried over, but regardless, that wouldn’t be a problem, because post ‘80 the SIII went to metric bearings in front, so the hub from a Rangey should absolutely fit that with the right bearings in use. However, I have not yet made sure that the pilot bushing that on an earlier model keep the outer axle half-shaft in place within the stub is the same/would fit that stub, because sometime late in the SIII life they went to a front CV. All this may be academic for the following reason: THOSE FUCKIN’CALIPER MOUNTS. Ahem. There is no good way to attach a caliper to the swivel housing that I can see, other than on the *outside face* of the swivel housing like the brake backing plate, the outside of the stub flange, or replacing the swivel housing altogether with something that has brackets.

Solution #1 is tricky because it means your caliper bracket where it fits behind the stub flange in place of the brake backing plate can’t be more than, say, 1/8" steel at the very most, or it’ll affect the position of the front axle pieces too much. Unless you got a brand new metric bearing Series stub and then proceeded to weld your bracket plate directly to its flange, which I’ll grant you would be hella strong. Not sure it would clear, though - coming to the problem with #2. There is absolutely not enough room behind the *disc* to let much of anything fit between the disc and the swivel housing. Like I said, if you could get away with something super-thin and possibly spacing the outer axle half back in the drive member away from the face (cringe) you’d have it under control. Or, if you could source a disc that wasn’t as deep.

I found this website after I’d done most of my poking around. If you scroll down, it looks like I was bang on about the way to do the rear setup re: back of flange caliper brackets. Also, custom swivel housings are a thing - Heystee’s conversion uses them. The Heystee kit is, however, 880 pounds. The Torrell Industries conversion pulls off the other trick that I hypothesized, shallow rotors. Probably a little cheaper than Heystee, but since they also use a custom hub, still probably a little spendy.

If I were doing this, I’d be tempted to attempt a stub swap or flip to post ‘80 stubs, a 1/8" plate edge-welded to the stub flange with some reinforcement and offset away from the disc at the top, and Heystee/etc. backing brackets at rear. That leans kind of heavily on my tendency to fab things, though. Rear brackets and front Torrell hubs seem not to be that bad a solution, you just have to get a machine shop to turn out Lumina rotors bigger every time you need to replace them. The prettiest front setup is Heystee in terms of parts/etc., but it’s a bit “bespoke”.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 04/20/2016 at 10:01

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Thanks for the report agent, truck arrives Friday so I can start taking her apart and seeing what can be done.

I was afraid of the bespoke situation, wanted to be able to do it with off the shelf bits so I wouldn’t have to worry about making new bits fit when I had to replace old bits.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 04/20/2016 at 10:16

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You don’t even know how many permutations of things I considered. I even considered as a solution getting late SIII CV axle inner half-shafts and just mounting the Rangey swivels entire to the Series case. That’s actually... almost possible. It’s complicated by the fact that the Rangey swivel housing assemblies are 2" more shallow than the Series ones and no parts interchange. You’d have to take the Rangey CVs and rebuild them into Rangey/SIII hybrids (since I’m pretty sure the Rangey outers are different), and then use a custom spacer between the swivel ball mounting flange and the case mounting flange. You’d need to lengthen the steering rods to do that, I think, and you wouldn’t know how much spacer you needed until you had the SIII late inners in hand or found length specs for them. Worst case, you’d have to space the whole 2". Easy case but also stupid case, no spacer required, but a 4" narrower track width up front until you had wheel spacers made. DURRRR. Speaking of wheel spacers/wheel adapters, that would be my choice for making the casing/swivel ball spacer - already almost the right size/etc and maybe even available with the right center hole size to center on one side, leaving only the other to machine.

At a guess, I’d expect something screwy like 1" difference in depth, ending up needing a 1" spacer/adapter and leaving a 2" total track difference front and rear, doing that. It’s attractive, but there are a lot of unknowns. Like - did they dick with the SIII track width in ‘80 with a bunch of other things? I don’t actually recall.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 04/20/2016 at 10:27

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Neither do I, I’ll have to research this and see what comes up. I was thinking maybe I could get away making an adapter plate for the casing and bolt the hub on with modified half shafts. Only problem is that at that point the track would be the same if I just used Disco/Rangie casings. The easiest solution is axle swap, but who wants easy?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 04/20/2016 at 10:36

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I’m thinking if we can pin down the left-field option of using SIII CV axles, that may be the best solution. *If* that will work, it’s just a question of tearing down a set of Rangey swivels, getting the inner shafts swapped, and installing a spacer, with that spacer and possibly lengthened track rods as the *only* unique front axle pieces. The *only* unique rear axle pieces would be the caliper brackets. The only new parts would be two post-’80 stubs in rear and two new inner axles in front... and maybe a better master cylinder - I’ve got the rest in Rangey spares just sitting around.

Edit: that might require cutting a circlip groove in the rear axle shafts to make them fit the Rangey drive members. Or ordering circlip 24spline-outer rear shafts because that’s what my rear drive members are. Pfft. Not really challenging.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 04/20/2016 at 10:51

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Master cylinder upgrade is happening regardless. Series IIa master cylinders are horrible to begin with.

Edit; with brake booster and SIII brake pedal.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 04/20/2016 at 11:14

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I know there was some website I found with axle lengths for the rear shafts, but I don’t remember who it was. If I can only find a source for that info for the front, I think we’ll be set, even if we have to do something bonkers like swap a bearing for size mismatch.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 04/20/2016 at 11:21

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RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 04/21/2016 at 09:10

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Hang on a minute, lads. I’ve got a great idea. Actually, it’s a really stupid idea, but it’s so stupid it’s actually kind of clever. You know how the rear rotors on a Rangey setup are solid discs and the front ones are vented? Actually, you probably don’t, but this means that they’re both the same size apart from thickness. I checked something on my spares yesterday, and all of the extra thickness (about 1/4") on the front discs is on the side toward the swivel housing. You know, the side that I said was too close to fit a bracket. Long story short, if you can live with using rear rotors in front (available drilled and slotted) with a spacer in the front caliper, and if you can swap over the hubs (stub axle move, swap the outer axle bushing), you can have disc brakes which only require 1/4" plate brackets front and rear and don’t require any other custom parts.